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Election debate: Johnson and Corbyn clash over Brexit and NHS in ill-tempered showdown

Leaders confronted by audience member in ITV showdown who asks them: ‘How can this nation trust you?’

Andrew Woodcock
Political Editor
Tuesday 19 November 2019 23:09 GMT
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Johnson v Corbyn: Boris Johnson and Jeremy Corbyn share awkward handshake

Boris Johnson’s central promise of getting Brexit done if he wins a Tory majority on 12 December has been dismissed as “nonsense” by Jeremy Corbyn as the pair clashed in the first TV leaders’ debate of the general election campaign.

In the ill-tempered ITV broadcast, Mr Corbyn accused the prime minister of planning to “sell our National Health Service out to the United States and big pharma” in trade talks with Brussels and Washington which he predicted would drag on for seven years or more.

But Mr Johnson repeatedly returned to the attack, demanding to know whether the Labour leader would back Remain or Leave in the referendum he has promised if he wins, and what price he would pay for the support of Nicola Sturgeon’s SNP to secure the keys to No 10 in a hung parliament.

There was little sign of a breakthrough for either side after the hour-long showdown, with a snap YouGov poll for Sky News finding that 51 per cent of viewers thought Mr Johnson had come out on top, against 49 per cent for Mr Corbyn.

And after Brexit dominated the first live TV head-to-head between leaders of the two biggest parties in UK electoral history, both came under fire from Liberal Democrats for the exclusion of Jo Swinson, as the leader of the largest national party advocating Remain.

Both leaders were subjected to laughter from the studio audience, Mr Johnson for agreeing that “the truth matters” in the election campaign, and Mr Corbyn jeered over his proposals for a four-day working week.

There were laughs in the studio too when host Julie Etchingham asked whether the two leaders’ lavish spending promises meant they had found the “magic money tree” and Mr Johnson responded: “It’s a money forest he has got.”

But the loudest applause was reserved for an audience member who told them: “This whole nation will have watched you both throughout this campaign in utter despair. At the heart of all of this is one very simple question – how can we trust you?

“Under your leadership, the debate has become toxic and degraded, with an appalling level of lies and childish abuse. How can this nation trust you to have the personal integrity and individual strength of character to look after our country’s interests, rescue us from this mess and bring us back together?”

Mr Johnson responded that the main reason trust in politics has been “corroded” was the failure of parliament to deliver on the 2016 EU referendum result, while Mr Corbyn said it was important for leaders to “listen to people and try to bring consensus”.

Johnson v Corbyn: Jeremy Corbyn's closing statement

Under some pressure from Ms Etchingham – who confronted them over allegations of antisemitism in Labour and claims from a former City Hall aide that Mr Johnson had betrayed everyone he dealt with – the pair made an awkward handshake on her suggestion that they should agree to improve the nature of political debate in the UK.

But there was no goodwill reflected in the two leaders’ choices of Christmas present for one another, with Mr Corbyn saying he would give the PM Charles Dickens’ A Christmas Carol “so he can understand how nasty Scrooge was” and Mr Johnson saying his gift would be a copy of the withdrawal agreement he reached with the EU in October.

Mr Johnson also nominated his EU27 counterparts as his favourite world leaders, because “they did me a fantastic deal”.

He said the deal was “ready to go” and endorsed by all Conservative candidates standing in the general election. He said he pledged “absolutely” to complete negotiations on a future trade deal with the EU by the 31 December 2020 deadline set down in the agreement, without applying for the two-year extension on offer.

But Mr Corbyn retorted: “The idea that prime minister Boris Johnson’s deal can be dealt with and finished by the end of January is such nonsense.

“What he is proposing is a trade deal with the United States which would take at least seven years to negotiate, whilst at the same time saying he would negotiate a special trade deal with the European Union. The two things are actually incompatible.”

Johnson v Corbyn: Boris Johnson closing statement

The Labour leader brandished a report on what he said were secret talks on opening up UK health markets to US corporations as he told the PM: “You are going to sell our National Health Service out to the United States and big pharma.”

Mr Johnson rejected the charge as “absolute invention”, insisting: “There are absolutely no circumstances whatever in which this government or any Conservative government will put the NHS on the table in any trade negotiation.”

He told voters that they had a choice next month: “We can get Brexit done or we can spend another groundhog year with another referendum, when Mr Corbyn – as we’ve heard tonight – cannot answer the fundamental question – is he for Remain or Leave and what price would he pay to secure Nicola Sturgeon’s support to enter Number 10.

“If he can’t answer those questions tonight, I don’t think he’s fit to lead our country.”

Johnson v Corbyn: Audience member asks 'how can we trust you to rescue us from this mess?'

Urging viewers to “vote for hope”, Mr Corbyn repeatedly attempted to move the debate away from Brexit and onto the NHS and an end to austerity.

He told the story of a friend who had died on Monday after waiting eight hours in an NHS hospital for urgent treatment for breast cancer.

“She recorded a video saying ‘Please, in my memory, we’ve got to make sure nobody else goes through this pain’,” said Mr Cobyn. “We’ve got to fund our NHS properly and fill the vacancies and make sure it’s there for all time. It’s one of the most civilised thing about this country.”

Mr Johnson said he agreed “passionately” that the NHS was “one of the single most beautiful and brilliant things about Britain”, and rejected Labour charges that he is planning to privatise it as he declared: “We are determined to fund it not just now but for the long term.”

He said: “The single biggest threat to our economy and our ability to fund the NHS is our failure to get Brexit done.”

In a series of quick fire questions in the wake of Prince Andrew’s widely-criticised interview about his friendship with convicted sex offender Jeffrey Epstein, Mr Corbyn said that the monarchy “needs a bit of improvement”, adding that “nobody should be above the law”.

Mr Johnson carefully avoided comment on the prince by expressing sympathy for Epstein’s victims and saying: “The institution of the monarchy is beyond reproach.”

Following the debate, Ms Swinson said: “People watching at home deserve so much better than what was on offer tonight.

“Both people on that stage want Brexit and there was no one on that stage arguing to remain in the European Union.

“Staying in the EU is better for our economy, better for our environment, and better for our NHS. A brighter future is possible, but it is not on offer from either of the two old, tired parties.”

And Ms Sturgeon said: “The clear takeaway for Scotland from this debate is that neither of these men should be able to determine Scotland’s future.

“Jeremy Corbyn can’t decide if he is Leave or Remain and Boris Johnson is determined to take Scotland out of the EU against our will.

“Only a vote for the SNP in this election can help Scotland escape from Brexit – and secure our right to choose a better future as an independent country.”

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